General 40k Shinanigans

Dealing with terminators

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Terminators. You love them if you play them, you hate them if you play against them. Alas, they used to be a simple thing to deal with in 5th edition for daemons of Khorne. A hell blade would make short work, and an 80-128 point (5-8 bloodletter squad) would handle a squad of non-THSS terminators in a single round.

Fast forward to now. Now there is no I bump from furious charge, no Khorne weapons are AP2, no transports exist to prevent your units from being whittled down prior to the assault, and there are no units of equivalent hardiness (ie- no 2+ saves and very few 3+ saves in the whole codex). Combine that with no long ranged fire support capabilities and it makes it rather tough to handle.

So how do I handle it?

Option a is to utilize flamers and screamers. Both are tzeentch and piss poor in close combat. With their WS 2, the flamers are currently brutal in close combat but as they continue to be very strong people are learning ways to work around them to include assaulting them with a small unit then a larger unit, hammernators still make short work of them, and now dirge casters. The screamers are a great option against elite troop choices but against blobs they simply lack the wounds. To make matters worse, if rumors are true a new daemon codex is in the making and this means that those two wounders are gonna likely be writing on the wall for the fact that daemons may lose universal eternal warrior. Finally…they aren’t my style and if I use them it is in very small numbers, but they don’t match the cannon of my army.

So what now? Chariots maybe? Glass cannons and a welcome addition to my forces but can’t be relied on.

So… To kill those terminators and crack that land raider, what do I use in a mono-Khorne force?

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Well, my first idea was the skull taker in Juggernaut. 3 wounds, 5 toughness, I5, S5 rends on 4+ against anything with wounds, 6+ against armor. Rending also causes instant death. Take him and a normal herald in the same squad to avoid the skull taker getting bogged down in a challenge.

However….here is my other plan. Flashy, fun, ultra versatile, offers long range firepower, transport capabilities, and durability.

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Mutilators with mark of khorne with lord of khorne with the axe of blinding fury. With a combo bolter, the two weigh in at 355 points and have between 20-26 attacks on the charge. They can rip land raiders to pieces, or butcher terminators. Either way, they pack a punch. In a land raider I can ensure they get to their target. Yeah, the land raider can be cracked open, but that means less high strength shots going at my bloodthirster and crushers.

Yeah, so this is the route I am thinking I will go down currently.

Aside from this, have debated making a chariot of khorne using the new nifty warhammer model

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As the chariot moves like infantry anyway,I think it’s fitting.

Well, thanks for reading,

KI

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18 responses

  1. Not to piss in your corn flakes here, but read pg. 78 in the BRB. Transports can only carry infantry unless stated otherwise. Your Lord on a Jugger is SoL.

    November 27, 2012 at 8:48 am

    • The lord is in terminator armor…didn’t specify but I never mentioned a. Juggernaut for the lord. The only thing I would have put on a juggernaut is the skull taker.

      November 27, 2012 at 8:59 am

  2. Shit, it’s early. Maybe it’s from a discussion we had and I mentally put that into this article.

    Anyway, don’t use Mutilators. Terminators are cheaper and you can take combi-meltas to slag a ride and assault the dudes. Mutilators can’t run so once they are out of the ride they are SLOW and when you have a unit that can’t shoot at all, well being slow is bad. Also, if you want to tackle Termies then why send in a unit that’s going to get tapped out by power fists?

    Mutilators have 1 attack over Termies BUT you can get yourself 1 more Termie to jump in that LR where Mutilators are stuck at units of 3. You can get 4 Termies w/4 combi-meltas and MoK for 158pts. They all have power weapons and if you want to tackle Termies then take power axes if you want to save on points (IE: you aren’t paying for it). If you want a few fists then throw them in too. So, let’s say 2 fists, so 172pts. You now have a unit that can pop a tank, shoot twin-linked weapons at infantry and assault.

    Point for point, Termies are the better choice.

    November 27, 2012 at 9:16 am

    • I thought about terminators, however it would be less wounds (4 vs 6), and a terminator weighs in at 31 points, 24 points less than mutilator, but if I add chain fists to them they are about the same. All in all, it’s an option I am weighing but I’m not gonna throw out the concept of mutilators as I don’t think anyone at the store has actually tried them and has dismissed them on the virtue of math hammer. When I ran my tally everyone said it was a fluffy list and not competitive. They said my khorne list would get tabled easily. Both lists have proven their salt. Think I will give mutilators a shot and if they sucks, then it’s to terminators. But it’s the virtue of their flexibility that appeals to me. They can run chain fists for those land raiders and tanks, then run lightning claws for those blobs and mauls for things…that well I don’t know what I’d use a power maul for.

      November 27, 2012 at 9:26 am

  3. Power maul is for smashing hordes, S6 AP4. Especially IG at T3 so you can ID guys. Lightning claws are better suited for killing Marines.

    It’s not mathhammer that I’m talking about though. My biggest gripe with Mutilators is they are a pure assault unit, they do nothing else for you. I know you do mono-Khorne and that’s all well and good but if you’re pulling in an allied detachment then make use of flexibility. For example, you dump those Mutilators out and assault a LR. Now the LR is dead and you’re going to get shot. I know you’re lists, you will have little to nothing to down that LR for the Mutilators so they are stuck destroying it. On the other hand, Termies jump out, slag the LR and then assault the guys in it.

    Chainfists, yeah, if you give each Termie a chainfist it can be pricey but why would you? Take 1 chainfist, 1 power fist and 2 power axes. If you want added means of dealing with assaulting vehicles then take melta bombs on the Lord.

    Less wounds, no arguement there but again, you’re talking about a Terminator killing unit. You’re sending T4 models against a unit with S8 attacks. That extra wound accounts for nothing in that situation. Don’t overlook being shot at by S8 weapons either. As someone who ran Oblits in damn near every list in 5th, I know full well how shitty it is to roll that 1 when being pelted with missiles.

    Have you considered Oblits with the Lord? Mutilators are more versatile in combat for sure but Oblits make up for it with shooting. They’re more expansive but I’m willing to bet you get more bang for your buck with them.

    November 27, 2012 at 9:45 am

  4. The problem I’m having here is that you’re sinking 355 points plus the cost of a Land Raider to kill 200-230 point units of Terminators. It feels like overreaction.

    November 27, 2012 at 11:11 am

    • Agreed. In my experience it’s about just burying those 2+ saves under volume of attacks. Orks love fighting Terminators for just that reason. Plus, whether you use Termies or Mutilators you’re still throwing your 2+ unit at something that doesn’t care you have 2+. Neither option will stand against Assault Termies packing stormshields either.

      If you really want to deal with Termies in assault then look at something cheaper that gives you quantity of attacks like Berzerkers. Toss 9 Berzerkers with the Lord in a LR and call it a day, or 8 Zerkers if giving the Lord TDA. Hell, take 20 Zerkers on foot, cheaper. It lacks that utility of cracking open enemy tanks, though possible, but better focuses on dealing with Termies. The points saved there can then be spent on other units for cracking tanks at range.

      November 27, 2012 at 11:27 am

      • Zerks still have krak grenades, right? If so, they’re fully able to crack tanks with AV12 rear or less purely by volume of attacks or kraks.

        November 27, 2012 at 12:00 pm

      • They do still have kraks but I know he’s more after snagging AV14 vehicles, so he’d be left with a fist or a melta bomb for that task.

        November 27, 2012 at 1:52 pm

  5. Yeah, I could use zerks to make a ton of attacks. Hell, I could use daemonettes or a chariot for that matter. The problem is the damned land raider!!! You have no idea how many times I have lost or simply tied a game because dudes sitting in a land raider. A land raider gives him the ability to dictate maneuver and combat and I need SOMETHING to take that away from him reliably! (yes, I could use fiends for it technically as they are S5 w/ rending thus 5+6+3=14…but not reliable AT ALL). My last game showed me how pathetic MCs are at cracking the damned things with 4 HPs. My thirster, even with re-rolls to armor pen, put one hull point on a land raider then got shot to pieces. Screamers fit the bill, but come in at a pretty high price and could easily be done away with by an assault by pretty much any blob given their WS of 2 and their low initiative. I like the idea of terminators with combi-meltas, also the idea of 3 oblits with the lord is interesting.

    Yeah, the fact that they ignore armor is why the I5 lord is in there. With AP2, S6, WS5, And I5 he is likely to squish a fair number of them prior to attacking.

    Also debated using Kharn with Zerks. He is S8 on the charge with armorbane and would allow for me to crack transports, not to mention he makes his unit damn near invincible to psykers. He hits a ton, and will insta-gib anything he hits.

    November 27, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    • Stop looking cracking a LR like a Khorne Daemon 😛 There’s this phase of the game others of us use, the shooting phase. Since you have an assault heavy force, typically, you WANT to open that LR with shooting to assault the dudes in it. Trust me, and you no doubt know, you don’t want to rely on assault for opening a LR. You’re left standing there with your thumb up your ass no matter the result and then get shot in the face a lot. This is why my Bikers have melta guns and are followed by Spawn. One opens the tank and the other eats the contents, or both do, whatever I need.

      November 27, 2012 at 1:51 pm

  6. Yes…that OTHER phase. I thought that was called the running phase…

    Regardless, I was actually thinking that maybe my landraider with lascannons could handle that. Looking back, I guess it’s sort of a long shot. I could always use oblits, but same problem there as Mutilators in close combat. There terminator option may be my best route to go, deck them all out with combi-meltas.

    Hell, I could just opt to go with a khorne marked Chosen squad. 8 Chosen w/ 2 power weapons, and 3 melta guns would w/ Mark of Khorne would weigh in at 250 pts. Pricey, but I would have 40 attacks on the charge at S5 (or 7 for the 2 power axes) and 3 melta shots to pop the damn thing.

    I also could Run 8 Bezerkers and a warp smith and give him a meltagun so he would get two BS5 Melta shots off first.

    November 27, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    • Now you’re on the right path. Any unit that can shoot and handle assault is almost always the better option.

      November 27, 2012 at 3:38 pm

      • On that note I could take the 180 pts of mutilators and 250 points of land raider to give me a lord in terminator armor and 8 terminators kitted out how I want. Put melts bombs on the lord and champ, one chainfist (maybe two for redundancy) and a whole bunch of combi-meltas. Then I could just deep strike the lil’ bastards and blast away at armor turn 1. Yeah, a vindicator would be some bad juju, but with DS options I think I could avoid it.

        OR

        Another option is to avoid the assault altogether. Take an Oblits squad and instead of a lord of khorne, stick a warp priest in with them to curse vehicles and shatter cover. The three assault cannons offer a pretty good armor pen capability. 12 shots=8 hits. From that comes 1 or 2 pens on a land raider.

        So all in all, due to the fact I am looking for something ultimately in terminator armor (1- cuz I want some durable infantry….2- and this is a bigger reason, it just looks waaaay cooler than power armor).

        November 27, 2012 at 4:36 pm

  7. Never, EVER rely on Rending assault cannons for anything. You’ll be sorely disappointed. Pointing S6 Rending at AV13+ is an act of final resort, not a main battle plan.
    And unless I’m misunderstanding you, the 8-Terminator unit with Lord won’t arrive Turn One with their combimeltas. You’re waiting til Turn Two at the least. And as you know, you can easily deploy to stymie deepstrike tactics like that. An opponent with a Land Raider will see that unit, and deploy a cordon around it to keep you out of melta range on arrival. They might lose a turn of full maneuver while they wait, but your other units don’t have shooting, and there isn’t a Land Raider capable army in the game that doesn’t have a metric ton of shooting to counter your early Khorne arrivals that hang out til the LR is opened.
    I’m not sure if it’s a specific opponent that’s causing you these fits, or the anticipation of a new DA book havy on TDA and Land Raiders, but I’d suggest you not focus so heavily on 250-point enemy units that only have one use. A Land Raider is neither scoring, nor a denial unit (vehicles can do neither). It is hard pressed to rack up killpoints by itself in a game against Daemons (attack its supporting units for KP instead of the actual Land Raider). Land Raiders are a big delivery tool in 6th, no more, no less. A Crusader can spit out a lot of small arms fire, but has limited range. A Redeemer can only ever put one flame tempalte on a given target, and you only have Invulnerable saves anyways. A Phobos can plink at your monsters with its lascannons, but cannot down infantry at all.
    Land Raiders are really the least of your problems.

    November 28, 2012 at 10:20 am

    • No, remember AV14 is also monoliths with their stupid door that can cause a S check. So you slap a monolith by an objective and holding that objective become very very difficult.

      On that note, it is an aspect I have had extreme difficulties with. Many a games I have had troubles cracking the land raider to get the librarian out of it. Plus as a delivery system is where it hurts. He controls the assault against an army that loses a lot of kick when it is assaulted. With a hammernator squad he can reliably down my crushers or thirster or really anything in the assault and then as I do not have the maneuver to stop him he will simply get back in the land raider and move to his next assault. I need to prevent this.

      Yes…dark angels impending Matt ward codex with all of its cheesiness that it will bring is also another factor. I can see it now, you’ll have plasma bolters…S4 AP2 for like a 20 pt upgrade. Seems like something that they would add 😛

      November 28, 2012 at 12:30 pm

  8. ming from bolter and chainsword

    What is the T and I of mutilators vs chaos termies? If 3 mutilators can kill off 5 termies, then awesome! IIRR mutilators are slow and purposeful? Then they need a ride to get where they need to be. I see them more as second wave or counter-assault units, not a primary assault unit. Best part is that mutilators are flexible. T5 if they have it has its own benefits. That, and the right warlord traits or chaos spells and you have something to dread. I’d say try them!

    December 6, 2012 at 12:01 am

    • They are I4 T4 with mark of khorne. I agree they’re probably best as a counter assault unit.

      December 6, 2012 at 1:32 am

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